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ÄMNE: Ni som funderar på en XC70 som dragbil.

Sv:Ni som funderar på en XC70 som dragbil. 6 år 7 månader sedan #147691

rasmus skrev:
... Volvo ägarna kan ju glädjas åt att samma version som sitter i XC70 även sitter i "terräng" bilen Bugatti Veyron :)

VW och Saab har den nyaste versionen (än så länge) av Haldex Version IV hur dessa är i sliriga situationer vet jag ännu inte. Men ska enligt egna utsago kunna fördela kraften än mer effektivt.

//Rasmus
Sitter även i Land Rover Freelander ;)
Fyrhjulsdrift = få ned mycket drivkraft i marken dvs antingen för max accelleration i prestandabilar eller framkomlighet på slirigt underlag, dvs är tillåtet i bilar utan terrängegenskaper ;)

Den senaste versionen från Haldex som heter Haldex XWD, som SAAB nu satsar på, kommer kunna överföra upp till 85% av all drivkraft till ett enda bakhjul om så skulle behövas. Lär ju kunna ge maximal drivkraft i alla situationer.

Om man sen kopplar ur antislir, gasar som en dåre så hjulen aldrig får en chans att greppa eller tvärnitar i lös sand så hjulen gräver ned sig eller beter sig okunnigt på andra sätt kan man ju inte förvänta sig att 4WD skall fixa till det ändå!

En fyrhjulsdrift blir bara "riktigt" fyrhjulsdriven om det kombineras med system som förhindrar att all drivkraft kan försvinna ut med ett enda slirande hjul!
Dvs måste kombineras med diffbroms, mekanisk diffspärr, elektronisk diffspärr och / eller annat system som fördelar över drivkraften till de hjul som har grepp.
Även konstant fyrhjulsdrivna system kan stå och slira med ett enda hjul utan något sådant hjälpsystem!
Verka finnas en okunnig övertro på vad fyrhjulsdrift är... :unsure:
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Sv:Ni som funderar på en XC70 som dragbil. 6 år 7 månader sedan #147776

BoUte skrev:
rasmus skrev:
... Volvo ägarna kan ju glädjas åt att samma version som sitter i XC70 även sitter i "terräng" bilen Bugatti Veyron :)

VW och Saab har den nyaste versionen (än så länge) av Haldex Version IV hur dessa är i sliriga situationer vet jag ännu inte. Men ska enligt egna utsago kunna fördela kraften än mer effektivt.

//Rasmus
Sitter även i Land Rover Freelander ;)
Fyrhjulsdrift = få ned mycket drivkraft i marken dvs antingen för max accelleration i prestandabilar eller framkomlighet på slirigt underlag, dvs är tillåtet i bilar utan terrängegenskaper ;)

Enligt dom uppgifterna jag har som är från 2006-10-04 så sitter det generation III (kom 2004) i Freelander samt i Volvos:
S60
XC70
S80
XC90

Nyheten med det systemet var att den kunde "förladdas" som skulle underlätta vid extrem halka, och där med skulle inte framhjulen börja gräva ner sig. :)

Version II av Haldex sitter bl.a. på: (kom 2002)
Audi A3
Veyron
Alhambra
VW
S40, S60, V70, XC70, S80 och XC90

Och har en "smartare" mjukvara som skulle reagera snabbare.

Version I som föddes 1998 reagerar Haldexkopplingen enbart på vartalskillnader och arbetar med en mekanisk pump, men har en mekanisk pump som skapar ett grundtryck.

Version IV kom 2007 och enligt uppgifter är det än så länge bara:
9-3 XWD
&
VW Tiguan
som har detta system.

Nyheten med Version IV är att man frångått det mekaniska systemet och enbart har elektriska pumpar som styr in och ur koppling, detta system är helt mjukvara baserat.

Haldex systemet är en viskokoppling eller våtlamellskoppling, med en vätska som när den blir varm (vätskan blir mer och mer trög flytande) börjar driva det som "behövs" detta lite enkelt uttryckt.

Det kan ju iof vara så att Freelander har version IV nu oxå, vågar jag inte svara på, men det vore intressant att veta. Är det en bilförsäljare som har sagt detta? Nyfiken.

Saab var ju den första bilen som kom med XWD och det var ju inte speciellt länge sedan.

//Rasmus
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Sv:Ni som funderar på en XC70 som dragbil. 6 år 7 månader sedan #147779

rasmus skrev:
BoUte skrev:
rasmus skrev:
...
Haldex systemet är en viskokoppling eller våtlamellskoppling, med en vätska som när den blir varm (vätskan blir mer och mer trög flytande) börjar driva det som "behövs" detta lite enkelt uttryckt.
//Rasmus


Njee, nu får vi skilja på viskokoppling och våtlamell.
En viskokoppling innehåller en vätska som ändrar viskositet och därmed ger inkoppling/kraftöverföring. Detta tar emellertid en lite stund varvid du oftast hunnit köra fast innan bakhjulen driver. När vätskan blivit tillräckligt varm nås "humpmode", dvs full inkoppling.
Stora nackdelar med visco är bl.a. att du måste ha exakt samma hjuldiameter runt om och svårighet att bogsera. Annars riskerar viscon att förstöras vilket är ett inte helt ovanligt fel på äldre bilar med detta system. Vidare har du ingen kontroll av hur mycket som överförs till bakhjulen.
(Volvo har även haft visco fram mellan framhjulen på 850 T-röd samt gamla S80 T6)

En haldex är en våtlamellskoppling där inkoppling sker via en solenoid som styr trycket. Oftast pulsviddsmodulerat (PWM-solenoid). Det fina med denna lösning är att det går att styra hur mycket kraft som förs över. När oljan blir för varm bryts överföringen till skillnad mot en viscokoppling. Åter igen är det altså bara mellan bak och framaxel som haldexen jobbar. För höger/vänster sida skall jobba är det ABS-systemet som skall hantera detta, men då behövs det att det finns moment att föra över, dvs fiskörning funkar inte.

XWD som Saab använder är enkelt förklarat en haldex för överföring mellan fram och bakaxel samt en haldex på bakaxeln för att bättre kontrollera stabiliteten och för att kunna påverka körglädjen.
Ex. En bakhjulsdriven bil som spinner på ena hjulet förblir stabil. Spinner den på båda bakhjulen blir den överstyrd, dvs "körglad". Precis den effekt som man vill kunna styra med XWD.
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Sv:Ni som funderar på en XC70 som dragbil. 6 år 7 månader sedan #147782

Njee, nu får vi skilja på viskokoppling och våtlamell.



Sorry, du har naturligtvis rätt. Har missat det faktan och lärt mig något nytt idag ;)

//Rasmus
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Sv:Ni som funderar på en XC70 som dragbil. 6 år 7 månader sedan #147802

rasmus skrev:
... Det kan ju iof vara så att Freelander har version IV nu oxå, vågar jag inte svara på, men det vore intressant att veta. Är det en bilförsäljare som har sagt detta? Nyfiken.

Saab var ju den första bilen som kom med XWD och det var ju inte speciellt länge sedan.

//Rasmus
Land Rover Freelander kom 2006 med Haldex generation III, allt enligt Haldex Traction's hemsida, se under flik Timeline.

Du hittar även hos Haldex en lista över bilmodeller med Haldex 4WD, även om den inte verkar helt komplett.

Och visst är det mycket stor skillnad på 4WD med Viscokoppling respektive med Haldex!
Haldex 4WD ger ett helt annat driv på slirigt underlag och kopplar in bakhjulsdriften mycket snabbare än någon Viscokoppling kan.
Med Viscokoppling tenderar framhjulen att slira loss / gräva ned sig först men med Haldex krävs inte mer än 6graders "hjulspinn" (dvs 1/60 dels varv) innan stort drivmoment uppnås på bakhjulen och på de senare Haldex generationerna kan stort drivmoment fås direkt. Se Haldex teknisk info.
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Sv:Ni som funderar på en XC70 som dragbil. 6 år 7 månader sedan #147811

... Det kan ju iof vara så att Freelander har version IV nu oxå, vågar jag inte svara på, men det vore intressant att veta. Är det en bilförsäljare som har sagt detta? Nyfiken.

//Rasmus
Land Rover Freelander kom 2006 med Haldex generation III, allt enligt Haldex Traction's hemsida, se under flik Timeline.
[/quote]

Okej så bara för att sammanfatta så sitter det alltså inte version IV på Freelander utan version III? För det var väl det du sa från början, eller? :)

//Rasmus
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Sv:Ni som funderar på en XC70 som dragbil. 6 år 7 månader sedan #149966

Har du stannat i lös sand med något fordon, låt oss säg riktigt 4-hjulsdrivet fordon någon gång Larzan?B)
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Husvagngsepoken avslutad, husbil gäller i fortsättningen tills vidare :)
Senast redigerad: 6 år 7 månader sedan av PerG.
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Sv:Ni som funderar på en XC70 som dragbil. 6 år 7 månader sedan #149967

Svar Ja.
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Sv:Ni som funderar på en XC70 som dragbil. 6 år 6 månader sedan #153158

Tja...den ser ju tuffare ut än Subaru'n...men de mesta går ju att dekaltrimma:laugh:
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Kör BMW 528ia M Touring
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Sv:Ni som funderar på en XC70 som dragbil. 5 år 7 månader sedan #194557

Skriver i denna tråden då det verkar vara den som mest allmänt diskuterar 4WD!


Nu har jag gjort fler "verkliga" tester av min fyrhjulsdrift på min Honda CR-V 2006!

Finns ju en del tyckare som annser att dessa system som ej är konstant fyrhjulsdrivna inte har så mycket "framkomlighetsfunktion" i sig på svårt slirigt underlag.

Hondas egna "Real Time 4WD" bygger på ett lamellpaket som sätts an av hydraultrycket från hydraulpumpar, där redan en mycket liten varvtalsskillnad mellan fram och bakaxel kopplar in 4WD dvs bakhjulen. Dessutom har Honda real time 4WD något de kallar för en kulram, som snabbar på 4WD ingreppet, men den vet jag inte hur den fungerar.
Honda CR-V fick en förbättrad 4WD 2005 med bl.a. mycket snabbare inkoppling.

Idag var jag ute på småvägar i skogstrakter, vägar som var helt isbelagda med tjock hal is.
Hondan går hur stabilt ock säkert som helst även i uppförsbackarna - får vara noga på att hålla igen på farten, lockas lätt till för hög fart...
Har dubbdäck som går sin 3:e vintersäsong nu på bilen.

Hittade en ganska brant isbelagd blöt backe in till några torp i skogen. Kunde se att flera bilar försökt ta sig upp där på färska kravsmärken från dubbar i isen, som dock stannade en bit upp i backen där de inte kommit längre.
Provar att starta och smyga upp där mitt i det halaste - smyger i 1:ans växel så inte det är sats med fart som tar mig upp.

Hondan bara kör på utan att jag märker av något slirande! Ger lite gas och då bara ökar den farten mitt i det halaste och brantaste, men antislirsystemet håller naturligtvis igen gasen till det greppet räcker till för.
Tar mig upp med Hondan helt bekymmerslöst och lätt utan några tveksamheter alls!
Verkligen imponerad - trodde med allt man hört från de som "vet" vad "riktig" 4WD är, att min bils 4WD inte skulle räcka till i en sådan här situation med så total halka!

Vänder och smyger försiktigt nedför backen för att inte riskera att kana ut på vägen den ansluter till. Väljer samma hala spår nedför så jag får känna vad de låsningsfria bromsarna går för på det underlaget.
Tar det verkligen lugnt men de låsningsfria bromsarna jobbar hela tiden och förmår inte fullt bromsa upp bilen, så får styra av det halaste spåret för att få stopp på bilen innan vägen nedanför!
Och det spåret tog sig bilen uppför!
De låsningsfria bromsarna visar ju att det verkligen var halt där jag körde uppför!

Jag har samma erfarenhet från när jag testade min bils framkomlighet i Skånsk snöstorm med djup snö - blev även där helt förbluffad och imponerad hur djup snö den bara tuggar sig igenom.

Har även väldigt god erfarenhet från att dra upp husvagnen för ganska branta backer med lösgrus i, men där är det svårare att avgöra hur pass bra 4WD funktionen verkar vara - är svårt att bilda sig en vettig referens för funktionen i grusbacken...

Är övertygad om att kombinationen av ett rimligt bra 4WD system ihop med det elektroniska antislirsystemts utmärkta diffspärrfunktion ger den här utmärkta framkomligheten på slirigt svårforcerat underlag, då ju inget enskilt hjul tillåts slira loss och slösa bort framdrivningskraft! Även förhindras ju att greppet förloras av för hög motoreffekt, då antislirsystemtet stryper gaspådraget till precis det som väggreppet klarar för stunden...

Så "förstå-sig-påare" som fullständigt misskrediterar dessa s.k. lite enklare 4WD system kan dra något gammalt över sig ;)
Sedan tror även jag att ett 4WD system med konstan fyrhjulsdrift och bra diffspärrfunktion är ytterligare bättre på att t.ex. dra fram ett tungt hästsläp på en lerig gräsäng vid någon hästtävling eller liknade tuffa situationer...


Som kuriosa kan jag nämna det lite speciella beteendet då man provocerar fram ett kraftigt fyrhjulsslirande på blank hal is! Gasar man på bra ifrån stillastående så alla hjulen drar loss samtidigt kan inte antislirsystemet förhindra hjulspinn (måste ha ett hjul som "greppar" och ger en hastighetsreferens för övriga spinnande hjul). Systemet ser då bara till så alla hjulen slirar med samma varvtal ;)
Bilen beter sig då som en smörklick i en het stekpanna. Kasar runt och vrider sig precis efter hur isen lutar för stunden helt utan någon minsta lilla styrsel!
Är en märklig känsla där inne på den lilla vägen i skogen (och jo hade lång fri sikt där... ).
Men kräver hård provocering för att hamna i sådant läge - har aldrig kännt något sådant utan svår provocering...

Tänkte det kunde vara intressant att ta del av för er som inte ännu hunnit testa själva...
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